Let's talk POLITICS ( NO FIGHTS)

[heineken22]

don't forget "Unique Adoption Gifts" too!

[kk448]

yeah, i meant evolution.

should've clarified that.

 

i personally prefer creationism, but when we did learn about evolution, i wasn't the kid who was thinking it was complete blasphemy, i actually thought about it and questioned it.

 

that's why i hate living in a small town.

no one thinks outside of the box, or are willing to accept new ideas.

 

I know what you mean. Lots of people I know are set into one belief and won't change for anything (like my mom). I'm always in between ideas, because I'll think one thing and then someone will say something I haven't even thought about and then I'll consider the other idea (like my dad). The only thing I don't like is when people try to force ideas on me. Then I get stubborn, and that's no good (like my mom). As long as people explain their viewpoint without belittling me then I'm fine with it.

 

 

As far as Creationism/evolution goes, I kinda agree on both, "Theistic evolution", I think it's called. I guess that's how I am on a lot of things. Some people tell me I take the "easy way out" believing things that like that, but I don't know, I guess I just believe in things from each perspective.

[lovempls]

the majority of the kids at my school are mormon, (including myself)

 

I didn't know that you're mormon, that's really cool. I have a friend who's a mormon priest (I dunno if that's the right term ).

 

Do you get offended by the South Park mormon song?

[kk448]

don't forget "Unique Adoption Gifts" too!

 

Hannah Montana tickets....

 

Miley Cyrus Pictures....

 

[heineken22]

I know what you mean. Lots of people I know are set into one belief and won't change for anything (like my mom). I'm always in between ideas, because I'll think one thing and then someone will say something I haven't even thought about and then I'll consider the other idea (like my dad). The only thing I don't like is when people try to force ideas on me. Then I get stubborn, and that's no good (like my mom). As long as people explain their viewpoint without belittling me then I'm fine with it.

 

 

As far as Creationism/evolution goes, I kinda agree on both, "Theistic evolution", I think it's called. I guess that's how I am on a lot of things. Some people tell me I take the "easy way out" believing things that like that, but I don't know, I guess I just believe in things from each perspective.

i think it's good to look at things from both perspectives.

otherwise, your arguement is a little one sided.

 

 

I didn't know that you're mormon, that's really cool. I have a friend who's a mormon priest (I dunno if that's the right term ).

 

Do you get offended by the South Park mormon song?

thanks.

if he's 16-18, then yup, he's a priest.

 

are you kidding me?

i love South Park!

 

and nope, i've got thick skin.

 

Hannah Montana tickets....

 

Miley Cyrus Pictures....

 

 

oh bother.

[kk448]

i think it's good to look at things from both perspectives.

otherwise, your arguement is a little one sided.

 

 

 

thanks.

if he's 16-18, then yup, he's a priest.

 

are you kidding me?

i love South Park!

 

and nope, i've got thick skin.

 

 

 

oh bother.

 

Gotta love Hannah Montana...

 

South Park makes fun of everyone and everything. I hope people learned a long time ago not to get offended by them or there would be a lot of pissed off people. I remember when I used to watch it, I would think, "I can't believe they said that!" Now, it doesn't even affect me.

[lovempls]

thanks.

if he's 16-18, then yup, he's a priest.

 

are you kidding me?

i love South Park!

 

and nope, i've got thick skin.

 

Yeah, he's 18. It's funny, he actually like talked me through the song and told me what was incorrect about it and stuff. It was cool, though, he didn't do it in a weird way And yeah, how brilliant is that show? It's dumb to get offended by it. One of my favorite episodes is one that basically destroys Catholicism, and I'm Catholic

 

Just to get my POV in here, I'm religious but I strongly believe in the theory of evolution.

[heineken22]

Gotta love Hannah Montana...

 

South Park makes fun of everyone and everything. I hope people learned a long time ago not to get offended by them or there would be a lot of pissed off people. I remember when I used to watch it, I would think, "I can't believe they said that!" Now, it doesn't even affect me.

my sister in law went to hannah montana with her 6 year old sister.

 

Yeah, he's 18. It's funny, he actually like talked me through the song and told me what was incorrect about it and stuff. It was cool, though, he didn't do it in a weird way And yeah, how brilliant is that show? It's dumb to get offended by it. One of my favorite episodes is one that basically destroys Catholicism, and I'm Catholic

 

Just to get my POV in here, I'm religious but I strongly believe in the theory of evolution.

it's like Family Guy, they make fun of everything, and i still love that show. XD

 

i'm the exact opposite, i'm not very religious, but i believe in creationism.

[lovempls]

it's like Family Guy, they make fun of everything, and i still love that show. XD

 

I am not a fan of that show. That's why I love the South Park episode where Cartman tries to get FG off of the air because he hates it so much. Everything he says about that show is sooo true

 

But I think this is supposed to be a politics thread lol....

[kk448]

my sister in law went to hannah montana with her 6 year old sister.

 

Well I bet that was a fun time...

 

Disney sure is cashing on the whole Hannah Montana/High School Musical craze.

 

The one South Park episode I did get a little upset at was when the guy at Sea World faked that the whale could talk and told the kids he needed to get back to his home planet. So then the kids sent him to the moon and the ending was a shot of the whale, dead on the moon. I said, "I can't believe they did that!" and my brother said, "IT'S SOUTH PARK, OF COURSE THEY DID IT." It seems like I never really get upset when people get hurt, but when something happens to an animal, I am all over it.

[heineken22]

I am not a fan of that show. That's why I love the South Park episode where Cartman tries to get FG off of the air because he hates it so much. Everything he says about that show is sooo true

 

But I think this is supposed to be a politics thread lol....

hehehehehehee.

 

aw, yeah.

 

politics.

 

hmm....

 

Well I bet that was a fun time...

 

Disney sure is cashing on the whole Hannah Montana/High School Musical craze.

 

The one South Park episode I did get a little upset at was when the guy at Sea World faked that the whale could talk and told the kids he needed to get back to his home planet. So then the kids sent him to the moon and the ending was a shot of the whale, dead on the moon. I said, "I can't believe they did that!" and my brother said, "IT'S SOUTH PARK, OF COURSE THEY DID IT." It seems like I never really get upset when people get hurt, but when something happens to an animal, I am all over it.

i've never seen that one!

 

that's kinda...weird.

 

i like the one where they form a boy band.

[Kelzy]

Regarding the abortion debate:

I think until you have been in the situation, you cannot judge what you would or would not do.

I have a friend who is ProLife. She has been with the same man for 3 years and they have a 1 year old child together. Everything was perfect and they were very happy together. They talked about getting married and having another child together. Everyone thought they were the happiest couple in the world.

 

Recently her partner become withdrawn and extremely violent towards her, she found out he was taking drugs and she became so depressed that I was getting phone calls from her weekly where she'd just cry uncontrollably. She wanted to leave him but couldn't. And once again until you live that situation you can't judge.

 

One night she turned up on my door step. She was pregnant. She cried in my arms for hours and all she could say was 'there's no way I can bring a baby into this relationship the way it is now." It tore up her up to be even considering abortion. There's high chance she would've miscarried from the stress or worse things could've happened to her. I supported her through it. He didn't even care about it, because that's what drugs do to people.

 

They've since broken up after a very violent fight where the police were called in to intervene. He's now trying to get his life back on track with the help of counselling and she is trying to concentrate on the child they already have together. But her dreams are shattered. I know it was the hardest thing she has ever done in her life and she still cries over it alot. Everything turned around in such a small space of time and she really had no control over any of it.

 

She is now obviously ProChoice, as much as she hates the idea of aborting an unborn child.

And Melanie, you wrote sex=children.. this is not a personal attack but if sex=children why do women have a reproduction cycle where there are times when we can and CAN'T get pregnant. Sex is not just about conception. If it was then women would be able to get pregnant 24/7. Even men can't impregnate 24/7.

War:

War never needs to happen. Communication needs to happen. There is no communication in war. When 9/11 happened all I wanted was for the governments to apprehend those responsible. Not invade and destroy the lives of innocent people.

Euthanasia:

IMO. I have a chronic disease. I have been on life support with a collapsed lung for a month. I wanted to die because it was such a horrendous experience. Should the day ever come that this disease renders me useless, brain damaged and drooling in a wheelchair, I do hope euthanasia is legal.

Racism:

Why CAN'T we all just get along???? *shrugs*

Gay Rights:

What's Love got to do with it? (Tina Turner:thumb_yello: ) Human rights means exactly that. HUMAN. There should be no fine print that says 'unless your gay'. We are all entitled to the same pleasures and disappointments in life.

*wonders what she hasn't covered yet*

[kk448]

War:

War never needs to happen. Communication needs to happen. There is no communication in war. When 9/11 happened all I wanted was for the governments to apprehend those responsible. Not invade and destroy the lives of innocent people.

Euthanasia:

IMO. I have a chronic disease. I have been on life support with a collapsed lung for a month. I wanted to die because it was such a horrendous experience. Should the day ever come that this disease renders me useless, brain damaged and drooling in a wheelchair, I do hope euthanasia is legal.

Racism:

Why CAN'T we all just get along???? *shrugs*

Gay Rights:

What's Love got to do with it? (Tina Turner:thumb_yello: ) Human rights means exactly that. HUMAN. There should be no fine print that says 'unless your gay'. We are all entitled to the same pleasures and disappointments in life.

*wonders what she hasn't covered yet*

 

I'm staying away from the abortion topic from now on, but on the other things...

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed.

 

[lovempls]

i like the one where they form a boy band.

 

I just watched that one today! Fingerbang! But, personally, I like Faith Plus One much better

[heineken22]

All we are saaaaaying, is give peace a chaaaaaaaaaance!

 

maybe we should introduce Bush to John Lennon, eh?

i hope this stupid war ends soon.

[Kelzy]

I'm staying away from the abortion topic from now on, but on the other things...

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed.

 

 

I just wanted to add my two cents by saying until you are put in that situation you really don't know what you'll do.. As much as you might want to do the right thing. I am Prochoice leaning towards the 'don't abort' side. I really saw how it cut her up to do it.. it was very emotional.

 

All we are saaaaaying, is give peace a chaaaaaaaaaance!

 

maybe we should introduce Bush to John Lennon, eh?

i hope this stupid war ends soon.

 

I love John Lennon.. the world needs more hippies

[kk448]

I just wanted to add my two cents by saying until you are put in that situation you really don't know what you'll do.. As much as you might want to do the right thing. I am Prochoice leaning towards the 'don't abort' side. I really saw how it cut her up to do it.. it was very emotional.

 

 

 

I love John Lennon.. the world needs more hippies

 

Yeah, I agree that that is true for a lot of situations...

[heineken22]

i love Lennon too.

 

i wonder what he would think of the messes we've been in he were still alive?

[mommylovesmika]

I'm not sure what I am.

 

I believe in gay rights, but not abortions.

 

I'm Catholic, but I'm respecting and open to pretty much everyone.

 

I think this country was founded on Christianity, but we avertised ourselves as a "huge melting pot!" and now all the Christians in government are like "OHHH, we need to get back to Christian roots, ooooh!" Well it's a little late for that.

 

I don't think we should have a woman president, simply because women are so disrespected in alot of other countries and they won't be taken seriously. Plus, women think too much with their heart and not their heads. It's scientific. A woman president could only work if the other countries had women leaders.

 

And I could say something about Barack Obama, but the last time I did, someone said it was racist. Which it really isn't... But anyway, I think alot of people are only voting for him because he's black, and they'll look like racists if they don't. It looks like a huge advancement for us (Y'know.. from slavery to president), but all in all, I don't agree with him on some issues, and skin color has nothing to do with it.

 

And I turn 18 on October 2nd next year, which is the cut off date for registration. So I have to go register on my birthday. And I'll most likely vote for Mitt Romney.

 

Sarie:

 

If you study US history, you'll find that America was founded not on Christian principles, but on Enlightenment principles. Most of the founding fathers -- including Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence, did not consider themselves Christians, but "deists," meaning that while they believed in God, they rejected the divinity of Jesus.

 

Also, the world has had --and currently has -- many women at the helm of various countries. These include, Germany, UK, Ireland, Israel, Pakistan, India, Chile, Argentina, the Phillipines, Finland, Sweden, etc.

 

Happy New Year!

[elanorelle]

Regarding the abortion debate:

I think until you have been in the situation, you cannot judge what you would or would not do.

I have a friend who is ProLife. She has been with the same man for 3 years and they have a 1 year old child together. Everything was perfect and they were very happy together. They talked about getting married and having another child together. Everyone thought they were the happiest couple in the world.

 

Recently her partner become withdrawn and extremely violent towards her, she found out he was taking drugs and she became so depressed that I was getting phone calls from her weekly where she'd just cry uncontrollably. She wanted to leave him but couldn't. And once again until you live that situation you can't judge.

 

One night she turned up on my door step. She was pregnant. She cried in my arms for hours and all she could say was 'there's no way I can bring a baby into this relationship the way it is now." It tore up her up to be even considering abortion. There's high chance she would've miscarried from the stress or worse things could've happened to her. I supported her through it. He didn't even care about it, because that's what drugs do to people.

 

They've since broken up after a very violent fight where the police were called in to intervene. He's now trying to get his life back on track with the help of counselling and she is trying to concentrate on the child they already have together. But her dreams are shattered. I know it was the hardest thing she has ever done in her life and she still cries over it alot. Everything turned around in such a small space of time and she really had no control over any of it.

 

She is now obviously ProChoice, as much as she hates the idea of aborting an unborn child.

And Melanie, you wrote sex=children.. this is not a personal attack but if sex=children why do women have a reproduction cycle where there are times when we can and CAN'T get pregnant. Sex is not just about conception. If it was then women would be able to get pregnant 24/7. Even men can't impregnate 24/7.

War:

War never needs to happen. Communication needs to happen. There is no communication in war. When 9/11 happened all I wanted was for the governments to apprehend those responsible. Not invade and destroy the lives of innocent people.

Euthanasia:

IMO. I have a chronic disease. I have been on life support with a collapsed lung for a month. I wanted to die because it was such a horrendous experience. Should the day ever come that this disease renders me useless, brain damaged and drooling in a wheelchair, I do hope euthanasia is legal.

Racism:

Why CAN'T we all just get along???? *shrugs*

Gay Rights:

What's Love got to do with it? (Tina Turner:thumb_yello: ) Human rights means exactly that. HUMAN. There should be no fine print that says 'unless your gay'. We are all entitled to the same pleasures and disappointments in life.

*wonders what she hasn't covered yet*

 

kelzy....I admire for you what you have said here. I so understand what you say. I find it disgusting that the same people who complain of racism issues also are against Gay people. such hypocrites!

 

Suzanne

[Scut Monkey]

Scut Monkey: You are wise. I totally agree with you, and I hope someday I will be able to share my viuws in a way as good as yours.

Thank you.

 

But can I say how much I admire all of the non-native English speakers here? I would not have the courage to discuss such controversial topics in my second and third languages.

 

 

 

I'm not going to talk about abortion any more, I've stated my views and they didn't affect people the first time (i.e. people still later discussed things that I think trivial) so they wouldn't do any better if I stated them a second time.

 

I will say this, though:

* Jack: that's a good point that you last raised about the contradictory nature of my statement. But sometimes I'm so pro-freedom of choice that I think that others have the right to do things that I believe are inherently wrong and harmful to society. But I know deep down that that can't work in practice, a coherent society can't be based on such a system.

* Christine, I agree with you on the fact that pro-life arguments which make murder acceptable in some cases contradict themselves.

* So, in conclusion, today both sides have contradicted themselves. And that is precisely why discussion is important: we need other people to show us the holes in our reasoning that we wouldn't have seen otherwise!

 

I'll also add this: I like the message of Kelzy's story, that even if you so have a strong belief right now it can change with time and circumstances. We forget that in the heat of the moment when we feel things so passionately. But say 10 or 20 years from now we all may (or I daresay most probably will) feel very differently on these matters.

 

 

 

Now I'll go compose my thoughts on the perceptions of Islam, gay marriage, female politicians, war and capital punishment. I'll be back later.

[Scut Monkey]

Now that I've started to flesh out my thoughts I've realised that no way can I address all of those issues in one post (the 1000 character limit would stop me for one ). So I'll break it down over several posts.

 

The first post will be on people's perceptions of Islam.

 

I don't agree with a lot of things in the muslim culture either. In fact, it scares me too and I'm just loathed by the way some of them threat women.

This may just be a matter of language/translation on your part, but I'll make the point anyway that there is a distinction between RELIGION and CULTURE.

 

Let's take a brief look at Islamic History. When Europe was in the Dark Ages, the religion of Islam gave women in the Islamic Empire the right to inherit, own property, own businesses and work, concepts that did not exist anywhere else in the world at the time. In fact, the Koran itself says that in God's/Allah's (Allah is merely the Arabic word for "God", it's not a different god or something) eyes in the end all human beings are equal irrespective of sex, race, social status, age, etc. and that the only thing that differentiates between them is their deeds i.e. their actions and their choices.

 

I think that you are not talking about the religion of Islam, Babz, you are talking about cultures that have distorted the religion to serve their own selfish purposes.

 

I agree but there are also nice muslims here to bad there are only a view of them And a lot of the scary ones.

 

The scary muslims think that they own this country and that everybody has to do what they want. 2 days ago I almost ran over 3 muslims in 3 different places because they think they can cross a street in a very none logical place and expect that everybody will stop in time. They have to accept that they are in Holland and not in Turkey or Morocco. They just have to adjust a little when they are here. We should not adjust to there culture. They have to adjust to hours. Some of them are living here for 50 years and they still can't speak a word in dutch

Again, you are talking about CULTURE not RELIGION.

 

The religion of Islam doesn't say "cross a street in a very non logical place" so you cannot say that "Muslims think that they can cross a street in a very non logical place". Islam doesn't say "don't learn Dutch" so the fact that those people who don't want to learn Dutch are Muslims is coincidental. Islam is not what motivated those behaviours, the two are unrelated. That perhaps has to do with their family upbringing and culture NOT their religion.

 

IMO it's unfair to teach Creationism in schools because it's just one religion's view on creation. If we teach Creationism, then to be fair, we should be teaching the Muslim creation story and the Native American creation story and so on. Evolution is scientific and has been agreed upon by the majority of people and scientists for years and years around the world.

What I'm going to say isn't about Creationism itself, it's about your implication that the Christian and Islamic views of Creation are different, which I feel the need to correct. The Christian and Islamic views on the matter, in fact, are exactly the same. Why is that? It's because Muslims believe that Islam is the continuation of ONE religion (what we separate into Judaism, Christianity and Islam), the worship of "The One God" i.e. The All-Seeing, All-Hearing, All-Knowing Creator of the Universe. In Islam, Moses and Jesus are respected as Prophets of God ("The One God", the same God) just like Muhammad is, and many of the stories in the Torah and Bible are retold in the Koran. These three faiths have far more in common than many people know (or would otherwise like to admit).

 

I don't like the fear we have of the middle east... but it's definatley prevelant now.

I completely agree. In my daily life I see far too many people generalise and fear what they don't understand (i.e. Islam or the Middle East) yet don't seek to educate themselves on it. Even those who think that they know only know what a biased mass-media out for a polarising story and fear-mongering politicians have shown them.

 

I personally think that the best way to know something is to speak to someone who has lived it. Talk to a classmate whose family everyday fears for their lives in Iraq. Talk to a friend who has been spat on in the street because she wears a headscarf which she views as an external expression and symbol of her personal bond/relationship with God. Talk to someone who was pushed off a public bus and told 'go back to where you came from' when they were born and had lived their entire lives in that very same country. These are all people that I have met in my life. If you haven't met people like them, then believe me when I say that they EXIST and they're the ones who know the REAL DEAL, what it's really like.

 

That's all that ignorance and fear of what we don't understand leads to: misplaced blame and persecution of the blameless.

 

 

Please, if this thread does anything I hope that it will make you go out and seek to educate yourself on topics that you're not knowledgeable about. Or at least accept that it's possible that you've only seen the side of the story, the side that the media and politicians want you to see. I concede that there is no single person that is unbiased, that's why we need to actively seek ALL sides of the story and not just one.

[Scut Monkey]

Now I'm extremely tired and I need to have a nap so that I can stay up late for New Years. I'll have to delay my other posts until after it. Until then, ciao.

[Kelzy]

kelzy....I admire for you what you have said here. I so understand what you say. I find it disgusting that the same people who complain of racism issues also are against Gay people. such hypocrites!

 

Suzanne

 

I admire you too Suzanne

And Scut, I love reading your posts, and you know why:biggrin2:

[kk448]

I completely agree. In my daily life I see far too many people generalise and fear what they don't understand (i.e. Islam or the Middle East) yet don't seek to educate themselves on it. Even those who think that they know only know what a biased mass-media out for a polarising story and fear-mongering politicians have shown them.

 

I personally think that the best way to know something is to speak to someone who has lived it. Talk to a classmate whose family everyday fears for their lives in Iraq. Talk to a friend who has been spat on in the street because she wears a headscarf which she views as an external expression and symbol of her personal bond/relationship with God. Talk to someone who was pushed off a public bus and told 'go back to where you came from' when they were born and had lived their entire lives in that very same country. These are all people that I have met in my life. If you haven't met people like them, then believe me when I say that they EXIST and they're the ones who know the REAL DEAL, what it's really like.

 

That's all that ignorance and fear of what we don't understand leads to: misplaced blame and persecution of the blameless.

 

That's a very good point. It happens a lot here as well. People have the misconception they all people who "look Middle Eastern" (or any other distinct culture, like Hispanics as well) must be bad or not from America when some of them have been here just as long as anyone and are just as American.

 

Also, I'd say talk to the family who gets pulled aside at the airport (every time) for 'random' further searching because the women all have a headscarf on and the men have long beards. I'm telling you the only people that were being pulled aside had dark skin and dark hair. Even a kid that I was on a trip with was asked to step out of line, and I'm assuming it was because he has some Middle Eastern background in him. He even had a student ambassador shirt, and the rest of us were let on the plane with hardly any search, but he gets pulled aside because he "looks suspicious." And all the people were just as American and loyal to their country as any of us.