Let's talk POLITICS ( NO FIGHTS)

[artsyfartsy17]

Good idea!

 

I don't agree with a lot of things he's done, nor his views on a lot of stuff.

 

Who do you want for the next election? I really like Kucinich, but I don't think he'll win. He's too nice.

[Scut Monkey]

I want to get this thread going again, but the only topics coming to mind are ones that pertain only to americans. Anyone have a universal one that ISN'T abortion?

 

GAY RIGHTS

 

PRESIDENT BUSH

 

The handling of 9/11

 

There's a bunch...

Sorry, but I thought Artsy asked for topics that are universal, non-American-centric? Gay rights is but I'd rate those last two topics as pretty much exclusively American topics: the first is an American leader (and not many non-Americans are up-to-date on US politics) and the second seems to be extremely important only in the minds of Americans, while everyone sees it a tragedy there are far greater tragedies happening all over the world to which 9/11 pales in comparison.

 

I'm currently interested in seeing how American/Australia relations change due to our prime minster changing. Because Johnnie was Bush's man through and through, Kevin Rudd (our prime minister), however, is not.

Kevin Rudd is in my opinion John Howard Jr. They differ very little in both policy and outlook which is why at the recent election for the first time ever I didn't vote for either the Labour or Liberal parties. Just because Kevin Rudd likes to advertise the fact that he speaks Chinese and signed the Kyoto Protocol which the majority of Australians see as over-due anyway it doesn't mean that he'll be the slightest bit different from John Howard. Nothing is going to change, Australia is going to continue kissing the US's arse as usual.

[soangel]

 

Kevin Rudd is in my opinion John Howard Jr. They differ very little in both policy and outlook which is why at the recent election for the first time ever I didn't vote for either the Labour or Liberal parties. Just because Kevin Rudd likes to advertise the fact that he speaks Chinese and signed the Kyoto Protocol which the majority of Australians see as over-due anyway it doesn't mean that he'll be the slightest bit different from John Howard. Nothing is going to change, Australia is going to continue kissing the US's arse as usual.

 

 

Oh well its a given that we'll always kiss the US's arse. We always like to think things will change when an election is held, but apart from fulfilling a handful of promises, not much will.

 

 

However, it was the fact that in an interview I saw on Aus tv, that Bush wouldn't answer what would happen if Rudd was elected (because ihe didn't see it as a possiblity) that has me interested in seeing whether, while staying the same effectively, the relations change in minor ways.

 

 

And yeah, Bush, and 9/11 are pretty much American issues.

 

Some more (though not entirely) global ones are

 

Women in politics (since that came up earlier)

Gay Marriages (also been mentioned)

Democracy vs other political ideals.

Human Rights (and whether other countries should intervene in another country in the name of human rights)

And Nuclear Weapons/WoMD/other sorts of weaponry always came up as well in my IR course

[kk448]

 

Women in politics (since that came up earlier)

 

I would love more than anything to see a woman president (for us) because obviously it's happening all around the world. I just don't think Hilary Clinton is right for the job. Maybe someone else will come along...like Oprah.

 

I think you'll find Sarie also said that the boy had average intelligence for his age. I was pointing out that children with autism can have above average intelligence as well. I didn't even say anything about communication skills so I don't understand why you mentioned it in the first place.

 

I brought it up because it was in Sarie's post. I just said that because I think she meant that his communication problems made him look less intelligent to other people.

 

I guess I didn't understand, sorry.

[lovempls]

Sorry, but I thought Artsy asked for topics that are universal, non-American-centric? Gay rights is but I'd rate those last two topics as pretty much exclusively American topics: the first is an American leader (and not many non-Americans are up-to-date on US politics) and the second seems to be extremely important only in the minds of Americans, while everyone sees it a tragedy there are far greater tragedies happening all over the world to which 9/11 pales in comparison.

 

I know this is coming from the point of view of an American, and I know that there are tragedies and disgusting and terrible things happening all over the world, but could you please not minimize the atrocity of what happened on September 11? About 3,000 innocent Americans were murdered, including hundreds of heroic firefighters, paramedics, and police officers. Three infinitely important and significant buildings were attacked, with two of those being completely demolished and destroyed. I'm not gonna continue because the attacks had immeasurable consequences for the city of NYC and the US in general.

 

I'm very sorry if that wasn't your intention, this isn't meant with any offense to you. I'm just a little sensitive about this, I guess. National bias.

[heineken22]

haha, Oprah pretty much already has the world in the palm of her hands.

[kk448]

haha, Oprah pretty much already has the world in the palm of her hands.

 

Doesn't she though?

[BonjourMika1990]

 

 

Sorry, but I thought Artsy asked for topics that are universal, non-American-centric? Gay rights is but I'd rate those last two topics as pretty much exclusively American topics: the first is an American leader (and not many non-Americans are up-to-date on US politics) and the second seems to be extremely important only in the minds of Americans, while everyone sees it a tragedy there are far greater tragedies happening all over the world to which 9/11 pales in comparison.

 

 

Kevin Rudd is in my opinion John Howard Jr. They differ very little in both policy and outlook which is why at the recent election for the first time ever I didn't vote for either the Labour or Liberal parties. Just because Kevin Rudd likes to advertise the fact that he speaks Chinese and signed the Kyoto Protocol which the majority of Australians see as over-due anyway it doesn't mean that he'll be the slightest bit different from John Howard. Nothing is going to change, Australia is going to continue kissing the US's arse as usual.

 

Well, I would agree with you, but I did add a note... I wanted to know OTher people's interpretations from around the world of how our president runs things:thumb_yello: and since he deals in matters of foreign affairs, I saw no problem with the topic.

[Scut Monkey]

I know this is coming from the point of view of an American, and I know that there are tragedies and disgusting and terrible things happening all over the world, but could you please not minimize the atrocity of what happened on September 11? About 3,000 innocent Americans were murdered, including hundreds of heroic firefighters, paramedics, and police officers. Three infinitely important and significant buildings were attacked, with two of those being completely demolished and destroyed. I'm not gonna continue because the attacks had immeasurable consequences for the city of NYC and the US in general.

 

I'm very sorry if that wasn't your intention, this isn't meant with any offense to you. I'm just a little sensitive about this, I guess. National bias.

I said that it was a tragedy, I do not deny it, in my opinion the death of even one civilian for any reason is a tragedy. I do not attempt to minimise its atrocity, merely point out that in the scale of atrocity there have been even greater atrocities this century. I cite, for example, the death of 80,000+ (and counting) Iraqi civillians since the US invasion in 2003 or 400,000+ Darfur civillians during the peak of the crisis of 2004/2005. There is such thing as 'tragic' and there is also such thing as 'even more tragic'.

[lollipop_monkey]

There is such thing as 'tragic' and there is also such thing as 'even more tragic'.

 

Ah, but one could analyze the different subsets of "tragic".

 

Iraq is tragic because it's ongoing, casualties are mounting, and there just seems to be no end.

 

9/11 was tragic not only in terms of number of lives lost, but in that it was an unprecedented attack on American soil. It's a tragedy not only in terms of death toll, but in terms of what it did to the psyche of many in the US and in Westernized nations worldwide.

[Guest]

Ah, but one could analyze the different subsets of "tragic".

 

Iraq is tragic because it's ongoing, casualties are mounting, and there just seems to be no end.

 

9/11 was tragic not only in terms of number of lives lost, but in that it was an unprecedented attack on American soil. It's a tragedy not only in terms of death toll, but in terms of what it did to the psyche of many in the US and in Westernized nations worldwide.

 

lolzzzzzzzzzz you said 'therms'

[lollipop_monkey]

lolzzzzzzzzzz you said 'therms'

 

Prove it.

[Guest]

Prove it.

 

now ur jus bein meen.

[Scut Monkey]

Ah, but one could analyze the different subsets of "tragic".

 

Iraq is tragic because it's ongoing, casualties are mounting, and there just seems to be no end.

 

9/11 was tragic not only in terms of number of lives lost, but in that it was an unprecedented attack on American soil. It's a tragedy not only in terms of death toll, but in therms of what it did to the psyche of many in the US and in Westernized nations worldwide.

My measure of tragedy is not only numbers, although of course that does matter a great deal, I also speak in terms of the reasons for those deaths and the ramifications of situation. 9/11 was committed by a terrorist group with clear malicious intent to cause death and destruction, some of deaths in Iraq occured under the pretext of doing good in Iraq and IMO deception is even dirtier than clear malicious intent. The Darfur situation, the death toll of which is incredibly higher than both Iraq and 9/11, is the most tragic IMO because the world for the most part stood by and let it happen and still continue to turn a blind eye. The international ramifications of Darfur are great, not only the unspeakable number of deaths but also the masses displaced which has affected everything from health to political stability to economics to policy to migration all over the world including my home and yours.

[Diana]

Very well said Scut.

 

It saddens me that a lot of people seem to feel an attack or death in the Western world is worse than one in poorer countries. (This is not aimed at anyone in this thread by the way, it's just a general observation).

[lollipop_monkey]

Very well said Scut.

 

It saddens me that a lot of people seem to feel an attack or death in the Western world is worse than one in poorer countries. (This is not aimed at anyone in this thread by the way, it's just a general observation).

 

Despite the fact that 9/11 is a smaller tragedy in terms of death toll than others (even going back in history - how about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?) I would say that one treads on very, very thin ice to say anything that minimizes the events of 9/11.

 

People are still extremely sensitive about it, and rightfully so.

 

I think that for many people in westernized nations, the things going on now in the middle east, for example, are so far removed that they don't permeate their collective consciousness as much. Same goes for things like the tragedies of WW2. Geography and history tend to dull the depth of these horrors - which is a blessing and a curse.

 

The events of 9/11 resonate more, because they took place against the main Western "superpower" of today - and because of how recent they were. That's why it's such a tender issue.

[Scut Monkey]

Despite the fact that 9/11 is a smaller tragedy in terms of death toll than others (even going back in history - how about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?) I would say that one treads on very, very thin ice to say anything that minimizes the events of 9/11.

 

People are still extremely sensitive about it, and rightfully so.

 

I think that for many people in westernized nations, the things going on now in the middle east, for example, are so far removed that they don't permeate their collective consciousness as much. Same goes for things like the tragedies of WW2. Geography and history tend to dull the depth of these horrors - which is a blessing and a curse.

 

The events of 9/11 resonate more, because they took place against the main Western "superpower" of today - and because of how recent they were. That's why it's such a tender issue.

I wasn't saying anything to minimise the events of 9/11.

 

What I was saying is along the lines of what I've bolded in your post: I didn't cite examples from last century, I cited examples more recent than 9/11 such as the Darfur situation which only reached its peak in 2005 which should be even more fresh in our minds yet have received less attention due to geography and politics i.e. it took place in 'a far off land' of a third world country that no one has political motives for interfering in unlike, say, Iraq.

 

I understand that because it took place on home soil 9/11 is naturally going to be a tender issue for Americans. What I'm saying is that people from other countries are more removed from the situation and are able to step back and look at our world's recent tragedies in a more objective light.

 

I'm sorry, America, culturally-influential superpower or not, the world doesn't revolve around you.

[soon-to-bemrs.penniman]

I wasn't saying anything to minimise the events of 9/11.

 

What I was saying is along the lines of what I've bolded in your post: I didn't cite examples from last century, I cited examples more recent than 9/11 such as the Darfur situation which only reached its peak in 2005 which should be even more fresh in our minds yet have received less attention due to geography and politics i.e. it took place in 'a far off land' of a third world country that no one has political motives for interfering in unlike, say, Iraq.

 

I understand that because it took place on home soil 9/11 is naturally going to be a tender issue for Americans. What I'm saying is that people from other countries are more removed from the situation and are able to step back and look at our world's recent tragedies in a more objective light.

 

I'm sorry, America, but the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

you're right

 

i get what you're trying to say:thumb_yello:

 

EDIT: now i'll be known as unpatriotic in addition to an American hater

 

oh well

you can't please everyone:cool:

[kk448]

I'm sorry, America, culturally-influential superpower or not, the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

I don't remember anyone saying that.

[Scut Monkey]

I don't remember anyone saying that.

Why is this thread so defensive?

 

I didn't claim that anyone here said that or agreed with that sentiment. I'm arguing a general point of view that is not aimed at the MFC.

 

So perhaps I should have said instead: sorry, MFC, but the world doesn't revolve around you.

[Diana]

Despite the fact that 9/11 is a smaller tragedy in terms of death toll than others (even going back in history - how about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?) I would say that one treads on very, very thin ice to say anything that minimizes the events of 9/11.

 

People are still extremely sensitive about it, and rightfully so.

 

I don't think what I said minimizes the events of 9/11 in any way. I was merely pointing out that there's a lack of interest and dare I say it, compassion for the so-called "silent disasters."

If the same things happened in the US (or any other Western country for that matter) that are happening in Darfur this very moment people would be crying murder and condemning just about every country that didn't provide them with help.

[lollipop_monkey]

I wasn't saying anything to minimise the events of 9/11.

Your quote was "while everyone sees it a tragedy there are far greater tragedies happening all over the world to which 9/11 pales in comparison." I don't disagree with your statmement- but the way you worded it does make it sound like you're attempting to downplay 9/11.

 

I cited examples more recent than 9/11 such as the Darfur situation which only reached its peak in 2005 which should be even more fresh in our minds yet have received less attention due to geography and politics i.e. it took place in 'a far off land' of a third world country that no one has political motives for interfering in unlike, say, Iraq.

Exactly my point - it's not in the consciousness of the masses because of geography, in this case. People can't relate as well to these situations that are happening literally on the other side of the world. And I agree there may be a political element as well.

 

That's not to say geography-based ignorance is okay - but frankly, that's how it is.

 

I understand that because it took place on home soil 9/11 is naturally going to be a tender issue for Americans. What I'm saying is that people from other countries are more removed from the situation and are able to step back and look at our world's recent tragedies in a more objective light.

People from other countries? *checks passport* I'm not American, m'dear. Canada may share a border with the US, but we also share cultural ties with the UK, Australia, and many others. I don't think my perspectives on 9/11 as it stands next to other tragedies would differ if I lived in Australia rather than Canada.

 

I'm sorry, America, culturally-influential superpower or not, the world doesn't revolve around you.

 

That was uncalled for - I see that as a somewhat inflammatory shot at the US that has the potential to offend. Why say that?

 

I don't think what I said minimizes the events of 9/11 in any way. I was merely pointing out that there's a lack of interest and dare I say it, compassion for the so-called "silent disasters."

If the same things happened in the US (or any other Western country for that matter) that are happening in Darfur this very moment people would be crying murder and condemning just about every country that didn't provide them with help.

 

That I do agree with - I think you're bang on.

[Scut Monkey]

I don't think what I said minimizes the events of 9/11 in any way. I was merely pointing out that there's a lack of interest and dare I say it, compassion for the so-called "silent disasters."

If the same things happened in the US (or any other Western country for that matter) that are happening in Darfur this very moment people would be crying murder and condemning just about every country that didn't provide them with help.

That I do agree with - I think you're bang on.

Well, Lollipop_Monkey, that was exactly the same point that I was making. I have said several times that I don't intend to minimise/downplay the tragedy of 9/11 merely highlight that there are other tragedies of equal if not greater tragedy in our world that receive less attention because they didn't take place in the US like 9/11.

 

That's also what I meant about the world not revolving around the US. I did not make that statement to inflame, I'm stating my genuine opinion. I believe that in the international stage greater attention is payed to the US than is merited or fair.

 

With regards to my 'other countries' statement perhaps I should have worded it better and said 'people less attached/sympathetic to the US' then.

 

That's not to say geography-based ignorance is okay - but frankly, that's how it is.

IMO it is not only unfair and unacceptable but something should be done about it, for example, improving education of international affairs for a start.

[BonjourMika1990]

Oooo

 

I'm an American, and sometimes I really do think our government makes bad decisions.

 

9/11 was a huge tragedy and it shouldn't be compared to any other horrific event because it's not a competition. Sure, there are TECHNICALLY more horrible things that have happened.

 

I do agree that other tragedies have not gotten the same attention, but I don't see how we can change that.

 

For me, someone living here, it was the most tragic and traumatizing thing that I've ever experienced. So for someone to say freely that there have been greater tragedies based on numbers: lives lost, money lost...whatever... I find that completely wrong.

 

Every single American citizen suffered that day. For me, before that day I felt like my country was amazing, SAFE above all things. I was oblivious to all the threats...to the people wanting to hurt me just because I'm an American.

So, no I don't think its really fair to compare it to other tragedies for the sake of downplaying the horrifying effect. (I'm not saying you did) Really, there is no other motive for stating that particular "evidence" other than to have the people who lived through it rethink their own traumatization.

 

As far as the statement about the world revolving around America...well I know you aren't "aiming" at anyone in particular, but I mean it's pretty obvious that you're implying that's what mant American's believe. and I partially agree with you, but AMERICA is a broad place with lots of different people.

[Christine]

The events of 9/11 resonate more, because they took place against the main Western "superpower" of today - and because of how recent they were. That's why it's such a tender issue.

 

I have to agree with Scut in all this. It doesn't surprise me that the countries that are directly affected by terrorist attacks in this century find the attacks more relevant to them than atrocities going on in other parts of the world. My issue is that the US government expects the entire planet to come to a grinding halt because of it.

 

It was expected that all of the west should drop what they're doing and expend all their attention and resources fighting terrorism because 5,000 Americans died. If the US feels no need to intercede in the killings of millions of non-Americans, why is it incumbent upon the rest of the world to fight terrorism that takes place on American soil?

 

More Americans die in car crashes every year and no one gives a flying f*ck about that or makes any attempts to mitigate it. Yet trillions are spent, basic human rights are violated, wars are declared and hundreds of thousands of lives have been turned upside down or completely destroyed over 9/11.

 

You can tiptoe around it all you want, but the reaction to 9/11 is disproportionate to what actually happened and I agree with Scut that most of the world looks at it far more objectively.